Episode 90 – Greygallows by Barbara Michaels

Please excuse the many transcription errors, we do use voice recognition and it does not speak Southern.

Hey y’all, I’m Courtney and I’m Sara and this is Bodice Tipplers, the podcast where we read all the books we use to steal off our grandmother’s nightstands.

And then we drink about it. On this episode we read Greygallows by Barbara Michaels. It is a 70s gothic, so like through that lens, be aware that it has like some pretty intense spousal abuse that is like financial and emotional and there’s a ton of really realistic gaslighting. And physical. It has the trifecta of spousal abuse. It doesn’t have sexual abuse, but it has like all the other kind of like all star ways that you know a man especially in the 19th century was absolutely legally allowed to abuse his spouse.

So and it’s done in a way that’s like really well done and it is horrifying and very scary. So for some people you won’t want to get into that. And there’s also a lot of talk about 19th century like child labor and you know exploitative labor practices and mills especially.

So yeah. And also I think you know you see like the wealth disparity and stuff in like large cities like London and how people you know were kind of treated. It’s got a very like Dickens feel to like hey let’s help the poor, which obviously we should. But yeah, it’s that stuff is realistically described and seeing how people can what they have to do to survive. Yeah, we’re not just giving you a trigger warning because there’s poor people in a book.

We’re telling you this because it is like actually described in such a way that it could be troubling for some people. So hey y’all. Hey y’all, we are coming alive and on location. So for five years we’ve been doing this podcast and we have never spent a penny of the the pennies that you give us on anything but like microphones and software. So this time we decided we’re going to go on a little retreat. We just went in our same state to a beach town and we’re trying to just like crank out a ton of episodes so we can try to be a little more timely. Yes, then we’d also you know thank y’all for your support to allow us to like recognize this kind of really cool dream of like they say to do what you love and what I love to do is drink wine and talk shit and I’m actually doing that and it’s this amazing thing that something that we created has allowed us to do this.

It’s kind of a humbling thing to think about you know so thank you for your support. Yeah, we’re sitting here in this little beach condo Airbnb. We’re watching the golfers go by and shit talking both their form and their butts.

It’s the way. By the way, neither have been prime I have to say. No, that’s alright though. We still get to watch. But yes, thank you.

And so yeah, let’s jump into some Graygallows. Now, this isn’t our first by Barbara Michaels. She also goes by Elizabeth Peters, but she is known as Barbara Mertz. Yeah, she’s an Egyptologist and so if you read her nonfiction books on Egypt, she’s done some some good like popular popular history books. One is Red Land Black Land on Egypt by Barbara Mertz. She also has a very famous bunch of sort of like romantic mysteries. The Amelia Peabody starts with The Crocodile on the Sandbank and she wrote that under Elizabeth Peters.

Yes, she also wrote the one that we did before is called Devil May Care and that’s the one Halloween when we did last year where the actual fucking devil. He shows up. He’s like, hey, guys, I was very disappointed that there was no actual like old split foot did not come in this book. And I do get a ghost. We get a lady ghost. Yeah, but spoilers. She’s not real and I wanted that fucking ghost.

I know. I love a good ghost. I want her to be like a feminist ghost and like ghost.

Yeah, I love a good ghost. So in other words, like we got a super prolific author here who was written in a bunch of different genres, which I think is really cool. And who is a real live Egyptologist? Yeah, I mean, how many everybody wanted to be an Egyptologist.

Well, I wanted to be an Egyptologist so bad. Right. She got to do it.

Yeah. So here is the cover for this one that we have is just very generic of a house. See, Courtney read the whole thing thinking it was like a 90s book because that’s the cover. Like so she was like, why don’t they ever fuck in this?

I know it’s very upset. I was like, man, what is going on? I was like, it’s 1973. And yeah, it does. But it does like show how like contemporary and forward like moving she is as a writer that you would think that it is a contemporary or more contemporary book.

So this is the back copy. Lucy Cartwright placed her life and future into the hands of the dashing Baron Clare. Despite the rumors of his dark unsavory past, trusting his kind words and gentle manner, she agreed to be his wife and followed the enigmatic Lord to Greygallows, his sprawling country estate. But mystery, deception, betrayal and danger surround the magnificent manner. A ghostly secret charges the atmosphere and terror rains in its shadowed hallways. Lucy entered Greg Gallows willingly.

And now she may never leave. That’s all kind of true. But it’s not really the vibe of the book.

So, you know, I thumbs down to this back copy. Yeah, it doesn’t really, it doesn’t give you any kind of real idea about what I mean. This does have, of course, a very foreboding house. It is a true Gothic.

Yeah. And the OG cover does have a woman with amazing hair running away from the house. Her hair is so good in that cover.

There’s none. There’s no Gothic book that doesn’t have good hair. Like it’s thick. I’ve never seen one.

Like that thing is condition. I’m like a witchy. It’s great. It’s a really good cover. Like Sebastian Bach, P.K. Yes, it looks exactly like Sebastian Bach, P.K. So if you want to get a copy of this, get a copy with the OG cover.

Yes. Because like the modern cover is terrible. Yeah, it’s trash. Trash. It’s so sad. Trash cover. Don’t with that.

So, let’s just jump on in. So this book, think Jane Eyre for the whole thing, honestly. Like clearly that’s what this is in dialogue with.

Because Lucy has been raised by one of those schools, like a little nicer than the Lowell School, but she’s been very sheltered and been given like a, a good lady’s good breeding school education until she gets the 18. Right. So she, yeah. And her parents died in this accident. She was also in the carriage accident and she’s at a little bit of a limp. But her family was very wealthy.

So she’s been paid for to go to the school and because she’s, you know, got a lot of money, it kind of afforded her a little bit nicer treatment and she got to stay in the school a little bit longer than he usually would. Like in a little princess before her dad like died. Yes. And she’s the addict and all that shit. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So she gets to little princess it forever. But she’s like, she is very sheltered. So she’s never really been anywhere but this like school for girls. And like, so she’s just had these family, like her one family member, her aunt would come and occasionally you her occasionally. And she thinks that her aunt is just like so sophisticated. And so, and now that she’s 17, her aunt comes to get her and she’s like, hmm, she’s going to get that.

I guess like in the modern day, she would have the lipstick that has escaped and is like doing the bleeding down. Yes. Yeah. You know, she’s like, hmm, not as, not as a romantic as I had remembered you looking.

Yeah. So the aunt whisks her off to London for a season and it’s very much about you are getting married right now. Like this is what is happening and it’s telling her what about this guy? And she’s like, but he’s 75.

What about this one? But he’s gross, you know, that kind of thing. And so she starts when she gets to London to she gets very sick.

She’s got typhoid. Yeah. Which I mean, yeah, you would.

Yeah. And so, you know, she she gets better, but she’s still kind of sickly and little puny looking little puny feeling and she’s got this limp, just a very sad little looking mousy girl. But what also happening through this sort of thing, I mean, obviously you as the reader can tell that the aunt is just loving spending her money. Oh, yeah. But so the aunt has to go back and ask for more money from like her their financial caretaker and you meet his assistant, whose name is Mr. Jonathan. And he’s like, I was picturing like a will and a foe thing. Courtney was picturing a silly and Murphy thing. Yeah, kind of that or like that Adam driver where everybody says he’s ugly because of his nose.

Like it’s just a nose. And it’s always that with these guys. You ever noticed like every time we get an ago, it’s just knows.

It’s just knows. He’s just got a like a patrician or like a Roman nose. And that’s the thing that makes him horrifying. And they never have like a saggy eye or like, you know, a lazy or, you know, well, sometimes they have a really sexy facial scar.

And then like they, they say, well, nobody will want me now with my awesome pirate look. Yeah. So Jonathan is kind of like, you get that kind of like Ichabod crane vibe of them that he’s tall, lanky, black hair kind of hunched, but he’s very, very like he’s a very fire brand young lawyer who is all about, you know, workers rights and, you know, which is his boss would like him to shut up about.

Getting rid of the aristocracy. So we love him. And the reason why he’s still employed by his boss, even though this is obviously not his boss’s vibe is, and this is so interesting is that his mom, his boss has been in love with his mom forever. And his mom is like, I’m not fucking marrying you. And also like, you know, you’re the running dog of capitalism. Yes. I bet she like, she keeps them on a little bit of a leash.

It is cute. So, you know, when they go and meet and talk about the money, like the first time Lucy’s like really ever been exposed to, you know, she has no idea about how people who don’t have, you know, her, her station in life are treated. And so her and Mr. Jonathan, old Jonathan getting arguments about it. And he’s all like, well, I think that you should want to know what they’re talking about because it’s your fucking money. Yeah. He’s like, well, I just kind of, for one thing, what am I supposed to do about it?

I had to do what they tell me to do and be like, I don’t know anything about it. She’s 17. Exactly. Like she’s like, yeah, she’s a wager song age and like people are like, you have to know this. And she’s like, well, I don’t know if you’ve met a lot of 17 year olds, but they are dumb. I’m sorry. If you are our listener, you will get smarter.

Yes. You will absolutely get smarter. Nobody is 17 is listening to this. And I was like, you know what I want to hear? There’s two women in their school. I want to hear these two women in their 40s complain about life.

That sounds awesome. No, nobody’s listening. Crazy. I don’t know. I don’t know what people do. Maybe that’s the new cool oddness. No, we’re not like mom core or dad core is like not us.

They’re not. And you did a craft beer tent once called my Kirkland signature hoodie dad core, but he said it in a positive way. I will have you know. I love that for you.

Yeah. So what he also does, but she comes in, she’s not feeling good and he takes her to meet his mom, which is amazing. And she’s like mind blown by the fact that you could be this woman.

This kind of person is an option. And then he’s like, you need to see what it’s really like the children coughing their guts up with the black lung and the this and that. So he takes her on a carriage drive through like the shittiest part of London. And she’s so horrified by it that she immediately like drops out with typhus. Like just, just, just slams out because like she was already sick, but this just does it for her. So she is down for, oh, wow, they had to cut her hair off. It’s all, all that stuff. Also, and Johnson’s like, maybe I made a mistake. Yeah.

That was a lot. Also at the kind of as this is all going on, she’s taking harp lessons because her aunt thinks she’s not quite accomplished enough. And the harp lessons are with this man who says he’s Italian.

Yeah. He’s like, my name is Antonio. I love you. I love you.

If you do not marry me, I will kill myself. And she’s like, well, I think he’s hot. And it’s very nice because it’s like that first like school girl crush, like illicit little romance. They, you know, they kiss a couple of times.

Very realistic. And but yeah, he’s like, if you don’t marry me, I’ll kill myself. And she’s like, well, I can’t have him kill himself. That’s terrible.

I don’t know that I actually want to marry. I know. But if he does, like, she’s like, if he kills himself, it’ll be all my fault. Like that whole, you know, something a naive girl would really think.

Yeah. And he sends her a ring and he’s all like, I’m going to come to spirit you away on this night. And she almost, she kind of just like, like sleepwalks into it because like, she doesn’t know what else to do, but yeah, hot by the aunt. And also I’m pretty sure by so the other aspect that you need to know is that she’s met this man, Claire Baron Claire. Yeah. So and he is extremely hot, although there’s some rumors about what happened to his previous wife. Yeah. And he’s got a big name and they’re like, well, he must be rich.

I’m like, oh, I’m sorry. Have you read any of these books? He’s not rich. He’s looking for money and he’s land rich and money poor. They all are girl. They all are land rich and he’s a little bit older, but not gross older and he’s very handsome. Yeah. And he’s very good at being charming, but remote enough that he’s still mysterious and hot.

Yeah. So but he sees all this business with the harp teacher. Oh, and the harp teacher when they’re caught out, the harp teacher is really, he’s not Antonio from, you know, Italy.

He’s really like Frank from Newcastle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like she had, she had been, he was like, yeah, he was trying to scam her and take.

Yeah. I wanted him, you know, although he may have actually loved her. It’s not, you know, he did clear, but it’s, it’s, it’s not a good look for her.

Obviously. And so like what she gets told is you’re marrying Claire right this second and you are glad that you should be lucky that he still wouldn’t have fucking have you. So and meanwhile, like she’s a rent under somebody that she used to know from school who’s trying to warn her about what people know about Claire. But like, obviously, well, she doesn’t listen and I’m not even sure she could have. What can she do?

There’s nothing she can do. But so they get married and they’re like in, they’re in the like the, the carriage to the north. Of course this is all taking like in the far northern Yorkshire and the house is called gray gallows and she’s like, okay. And like her friend to send her a letter, Claire, all of it in front of her reads it tears in the faces of the resident outside.

You don’t need to see that. In other words, this is the first like super controlling thing that he does. And like this is where she like, Lucy’s starting to open her eyes and realize, oh, this is this is how it’s going to be. Yeah.

Yeah. My husband now like has essentially complete ownership of me. And if he doesn’t want me to read a letter. So there’s other stuff he’s like, well, I’ve, you know, I’ve bought a bunch of furnishings like I’ve redone your rooms in the house and she’s like, oh, well, I would have liked to have gotten too bad. Yeah. I like, I was like, why would you want to pick, you know, like, yeah, getting shut down all the time and she’s, she’s realizing like, oh, okay, this is how it’s going to be. So also, it’s got one of those scenes like, you know, when they get married and then had to immediately get on a coach and then they always spend their first night as husband and wife in and in and they never have sex with that night.

Yes. Well, that happens. But like, she’s all like, you know, blushing and nervous and ready. And the maid of the inn is even like trying to be super supportive and she’s like, it’s okay, you’ll like it. He’s hot. You got a good one. You got to be really good. I’ve seen a lot of people not have sex in this room.

You’re going to, you’re with, by far, the hottest guy to not have sex in this room with. Yeah. Right.

But he, he, he just goes to bed and she’s like, well, okay. So it takes some days to get there. Yeah. And like, he doesn’t want to stop in the town at all. He’s like, we’re going to go and she’s like, well, you know, are you going to get the servants out of bed? And he’s like, that’s their job.

Like, okay. So, you know, she gets there and like, in other words, he’s a little bit, he’s not super different, but he’s a little bit different once she’s married to him and they settle into the house and her rooms are super nice, but he does not come to her then either. And she has heard that there’s a ghost is the woman in white. And she thinks she might see the woman in white in this first night.

Yes. Because she’s like, she’s going where she’s not supposed to be going. She goes into his chambers because he, she hears him leaving and he’s got like a door to the outside in his room. And so she peeks out and she thinks she sees this woman in white. So she’s like, who does the ghost?

I don’t know who does the ghost? Which is only kind of like, makes her think more like, because the next day she goes like on a tour of the house. There’s a portrait gallery and she’s like, how come all them men in all these paintings are so well detailed and the women are like, they’re barely have faces.

And the maid’s like, oh, don’t know. Yeah, sure. But there is one painting of a woman that has an interesting face and the woman is like howling and I’m like, oh, that’s the woman in white.

Like, okay. But she also gets some background in, in other words, like, well, you know, up in Yorkshire, they still care very much about Richard the third. Oh, yes, Richard the third. Oh dear. Okay.

So yeah. And they do talk a good bit about how the North fucking remembers Richard the third. And they don’t like this guy for like, you know, being on the side that betrayed him. So, you know, fair. It’s like, you know, we’re just building kind of a, you know, a framework here. Yeah. So like things go on and this guy continues to not fuck her.

Yeah. And like, he has really erratic mood swings. Sometimes he’s really nice to us.

Sometimes he’s like really cold and abrupt. She passes out at one like point. She like, you know, and, you know, he’s all like by her bedside, like goodbye. You know, it’s kind of like this in those comedies where you see where somebody has this like, you know, light, like snooze. They’re like, pull the plug. You know.

Yeah. Like every time that she seems more sickly, he’s very considerate of her. And every time she’s like in rude good health, because she’s 17 and she’s been like wandering the moors a little bit, he’s all like, hmm. So she does actually try to come on to him once and gets rejected, like terribly. And he’s like, never do that again. Yeah.

Fucking never do that again. And she has no idea what to do. She has really no allies in the house. Like she tries to make friends and people are not unfriendly, but maybe they’ve learned not to get attached. Yeah. You know, and so and they go to church because, of course, she’s like, oh, God, maybe I can finally make some fucking friends at church, because you have to fucking go to church in these things. It’s like 1850 something. Yeah.

FYI. So and so what she does is she meets the vicar, whose name is Fleet Wood and his sister, his name is Miss Fleetwood, obviously. And they’ve grown up with Claire and they are super friendly to her.

Yeah. She has a little bit of a lady crush on Mrs. Fleetwood because she’s so beautiful. And she’s like, anyone that beautiful has to be interesting and amazing. And well, they’re both very beautiful because like she the same thing.

Like she meets Vicar Fleetwood and he’s so beautiful that she’s like, of course, he’s nice. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. And I mean, as things get kind of worse between her and Claire, like she talks to Fleetwood about it because, you know, that’s her kind of spiritual advisor. And he’s like, I’ll talk to him. OK, yeah, I’ll talk to him.

I’ll and then like so he she sees Fleetwood as like the sort of like somebody who’s on her side, but it’s also sort of the like the Claire whisperer. Yeah. Yeah. So like the only person who’s trying to like because he and Claire are best for it BFF. Yeah.

And have been like for forever. And so she like and but things are also just getting weirder and more uncomfortable for her like Claire has gotten her a horse to ride. And she’s a little afraid of the horse, but he’s like, you need to learn how to fucking ride it.

Yeah, because she’s got a bad leg and he’s like, don’t get on this horse. So she’s like, well, fine. But she’s not she’s not comfortable with it.

No, she doesn’t want to do all these things that she’s just not comfortable. He’s like, hey, go jump off the roof of the house. So she’s like, well, why are you going to do this? Yeah. And she’s like trying to go to the town.

Yeah. Because like she’s bored to fucking tears. Or like she’s she’s trying to read books from the library, but she’s never had any Greek or Latin or anything. Yeah. So she just feels like totally at sea.

And so she goes to town and she’s like, well, ladies of the manner are supposed to be like, I don’t know, bringing food, right? And shit. Yeah. And so she really thinks like from her conversations with Jonathan and like Claire did know a little bit about Jonathan, too, because, you know, she had been seen talking to him some, but she really thinks about that. And like getting to know these people. And so she goes into the town and really starts to like the town’s people end up loving her because she like brings them food, takes care of people when they’re sick, remembers everyone’s names. Because she’s genuinely interested in them. It’s not like one of those things where the lady of the manner has shown up.

This is somebody who is literally like taking a real interest in the. Yes. Yeah.

You know, because it’s not not in that way that like she’s just a sweet little puppet, but like, you know, in a real human being. Yeah. Which is great.

I love that. But so meanwhile, things are just getting fucking weirder and weirder. And there’s an incident where like, so Tom, the stable boy is like one of the kids, obviously lives in the town.

So she’s gotten close to him and and Claire is weird about he’s a shot. Well, OK, he’s probably not that young. He’s probably like 15. So he’s closer to her at age.

Yeah. Then that’s the thing he’s like she calls him a child. But then she does say like, well, he’s like two years younger than me, you know. But like Claire is all like has this weird fitted jealousy about Tom. Like you’re not allowed to write out with Tom anymore. Like, but OK. And I know what you were well, I what?

So it’s like this weird gaslighty thing. And then so so she she’s on her horse and she’s been told like I’m he’s in like Edinburgh, whatever I’m coming back across the Mars. I want you to meet me. And she’s like, OK, but I don’t know what I’m doing or where I’m going.

And I’m not allowed to take Tom and I don’t know how to do it right and not get yelled at. So she takes this horse out to meet him on the road. And she hears like she thinks it’s like a bird call. The weather is really bad, too.

It’s like really foggy and misty and it’s like it’s dangerous conditions to be out in. And she hears this like whistle. We know because we are not stupid that it’s a whistle. She thinks the bird call and the horse bolts out from Hunter and she almost dies.

Yeah. So and then of course, Claire comes along and he’s like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Why would you ever go riding on a day like this?

Why didn’t you take the groom? And she’s like, but you told me no, I didn’t. So this is where the gas like and yeah. And Tom had tried to go with her and she was like, no, no, no, he’ll get mad. But then he uses that as an excuse to fire Tom. So in other words, he’s separating her from anybody who’s a friend of hers. He’s accusing her of infidelity. He’s like doing like people say gaslighting all the time. This is literal gaslighting where he says, no, I didn’t tell you that. Yeah, when people exactly the opposite of that.

Yeah, when people think it’s just for somebody lying to you, like that’s not. Yeah, but yeah, no, he is he is deliberately trying to make her crazy and make her second guess every single thing that she does and make everybody else think. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress.

She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress. She’s a great actress.

She’s a great actress. you know, now obviously if she dies, it would go to her husband. So, or her son, which is, and you realize like, oh, maybe that’s why he won’t touch her.

He doesn’t want her to have a kid. You’re right. Right. So it emits all this and it is very stressful.

Yes. It is so fucking stressful. I had to get, I had to put the book down and make myself a cup of tea. I was so, yeah, no. Well, Jonathan comes to visit because he’s like, I got these papers.

I just wanted to check on you. Yeah, because he’s like, how’s that man spent like 30 grand in six months? What’s going on? But yeah, like he and Jonathan looks around and he realizes like, shit.

But he explains to her because nobody’s ever actually, she knows this, but nobody has sat down and explained like coverture to her. Yeah. Like you are not a legal person. Yeah.

Anymore at all. Once the second you got married. So in other words, it unless like, there’s nothing that he can do to you that he’s not allowed to do to you. Yeah, exactly. Like if you run away, he’ll have you brought back.

If he beats you, people might like look at him bad in church, but he’s allowed to do that. He can take all of your money. And so there is nothing you can do. And it kills me to watch this, but it’s still true. So you need to understand exactly what your position is here.

And I wish somebody would have told you that, not that it would change anything, but you need to know it. Yeah. She’s like, well, thanks for that.

Yeah. But, you know, they kind of realize, you know, as they spend time together, that, you know, he is in love with her. She begins to fall in love with him. And it kills him that he can’t do anything about it. And it’s really about like how they’re kind of both powerless in this situation.

Even one, you know, one evening in so far that like. Claire is really setting them up like he puts them in the room. He puts Jonathan in a room next to him. And then he’s like accuses her of being too close with him. And that’s when he gets physical with her. And Jonathan knows what’s happening.

Can hear it happen and he can’t do anything. And so she’s got like a black eye. And what he wants is for them to either cheat or for, like, you know, for them to do something so that he can either, you know, put her off. He could like he could divorce her, keep her money. If he could run an insane asylum, he could, you know, whatever he wants to do. So I mean, he sees this as an option. Yeah.

Oh, OK. She are obviously close. And so like, and he even hires like a nasty little British, like obviously guy from prisoner, not a local guy, because, you know, as a local to follow up, yeah, follow them. Like, and Jonathan’s like, I don’t know what to do.

This man’s going to kill you, but I don’t know what to fucking do. Yeah. And yeah, it’s all very. And of course, meanwhile, like, you know, Claire is forbidden her to go to the village. But she’s like, you told me to go like, no, I would never tell you to go there.

It’s full of disease. Like, like this whole back and forth, she never knows what to do. So the only person she can really try to do anything to like better her a lot is to talk to Fleetwood. And so she’s trying to make friends with Miss Fleetwood. But like Miss Fleetwood is always kind of like keeping her at a little distance.

Yeah. And she tells Jonathan like, I would think because I’ve seen they’re another close. I’ve seen Claire coming out of their cottage. Sometimes even when I know that Fleetwood, Mr. Fleetwood’s not there, but there’s no way that that woman would be like another woman.

Right. And so and even Jonathan even looks at her. She’s like, and he’s like, no, no, no, she’s too pretty. Like nobody will believe this woman. This woman is too beautiful to do anything wrong. I was like, oh, that must be.

She’s too sweet. Can you imagine that? Oh, my God. Yeah.

And I talk about pretty privileged. I need to get some of that. Oh, my God.

People just look at me and be like, no, no, no, you’re you’re good. You’re about to hear a troll woman. Yeah. So, um, yeah, it’s that. Yeah, it’s wild. So like all these things keep happening.

But essentially what really happens is that it comes to a head and. And like suddenly Miss Fleetwood is ill and needs to go to the continent for her health now. OK. And also they’re going to pick up and move to London. Like, OK, Claire wants to do it.

So OK, whatever. So they’re packing up the house and he and she, because they’ve already sent the servants ahead, she and he are alone in the house and she’s like, OK, well, this is when he fucking murders me. Yeah, I can tell. This is when he’s just going to murder me.

And there’s absolutely nothing I can fucking do about it. Meanwhile, by the way, she’s seen the woman and why to couple other times. Yeah, whatever. Um, I guess this is just it.

So the drugs are again, as usual. And then like so I forget exactly how it works out that Jonathan comes to save her. But it doesn’t work because Claire just like ties Jonathan up to and he’s just going to like literally burn the house down. Like that’s his plan.

Yeah. Tie the two of you up, burn the house down, leave. Because what he had wanted to do was to have like a carriage accident happen. Like he wanted Jonathan to like what, spirit her away and then then a carrot.

None of these plans, like these are all like the most cockamamie plans. Well, it comes out that his thing, what he he doesn’t want to murder somebody because he’s like a good person, right? Good people don’t murder things. But if someone dies, you just happen to die. Well, that’s fine, obviously.

And then you just get their money, right? So it comes out like the real story is that her aunt had told him, oh, yeah, she’s going to die now. She’s going to die. She’ll make it like two months, dude. She is on the way out. So he had actually paid her aunt for her hand in marriage with the expectation that she wasn’t going to live very long. This bitch just keeps living.

Just keeps fucking living. So then Fleetwood burst in and he’s like, we had a fucking carriage accident. And now my sister’s dead. And you find out that the sister is who Claire is really like in love with.

And had been pregnant. Yeah. So that’s why it had to happen then. And because the sister was going to go to Europe, have her baby in like niece or somewhere like that, Paris, somewhere a little like, you know, have her baby and then he was going to go over and tell everybody he was a widower, they were going to get married. Yes. And then when he came back, he was going to because the timelines would be close enough that he could say, I fell in love with her in France.

We got married and then this baby came about early. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, and then he finds out that Mrs. Fleetwood is dead and he’s insane with grief.

The house is burning. I can’t remember what happened to Mr. Fleetwood. He’s in there too. And what happens is Tom comes and rescues them all. Tom is the hero. Tom actually kills Fleetwood.

I’m not sure Fleetwood does in the Tom kills Fleetwood and then Claire dies in the fire because you find out too that Fleetwood, Mr. Vicar Fleetwood had really been the one like the evilest one. Yeah, because he was in on it too. Like he had trained the horse to like bolt.

He had also dressed up as the guy. Yeah. And like you really it feels kind of confusing because you’re like, why are you doing all this for your sister’s happiness? That’s why we are a little we’ll talk about it later. But like, yeah, we both thought a little bit like, are we sure that this wasn’t sort of like a polycule kind of business? Yeah, sure that this was just that Claire was into Miss Fleetwood. Yeah, exactly.

I got that vibe too. But yeah, so she’s sitting there watching Greg Alice burn Claire dies. Tom is the hero.

Tom saves everybody. So all the people in the town like, who you made it out of that one girl. Yeah. And so her and Jonathan end up, you know, happily ever after. Yeah.

So big. The only way a gothic can truly end was the fire right? Yeah, exactly. House time because the house is always a character in the gothic.

Yeah. The house is the thing that ties you to the past. It’s the actor of the past and you had to kill the house. So they kill the house and they live happily ever after.

The thing about it is this is a 1973 book and it is sometimes so coy because in some ways it’s honestly has more in common with the social more of the time is about our time that it’s not exactly clear what happened. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you’re just supposed to like, you know, smell between the lines. And I’m like, wait, wait, what happened?

Yeah, I mean, like so, you know, and when you get to like everything happening at the end, it’s spend a little bit of like what? Because it’s so otherwise it feels very contemporary written right. So sharp. It’s so I mean, she she can write like a house on like I didn’t mean to. So yeah, so that’s that’s what what goes on in it. Now, like I think with questions, we get to like double into like why it’s so interesting.

Yes. So big dick energy or big dick energy? Well, again, you know, Jonathan is our main guy.

And I mean, it’s not big dick energy. I mean, because it’s more about how this would have really been. And you know, he doesn’t get to come in and swoop in and save her or anything like that, because it’s, you know, set this kind of realistic tone of yeah, he can’t.

There’s nothing he can do. And that’s part of why the book is so unsettling. That’s what you want, of course. A hero in a romance novel is not supposed to just have to stand there while your husband like, like, hard enough that you hit the floor. Yeah. I mean, doesn’t just like give her a slap like, like, no, it’s her. And then and and Jonathan just has to like, you know, eat his fucking fingers off because he can’t do anything. Yeah, it’s much more realistic, but it also it raises the stakes to an intense degree, because you I mean, you know that literally nobody’s coming to save anybody. I mean, really, Tom probably has the biggest BDE because he’s the one that gets to come in and save everybody.

That’s true. Like, because he actually gets to come in, he saves today. He carries them each out one in turn. Yes.

He’s like, I’m going to go back for him. It’s fine. Like just you just hang up. I’m on it. Yeah.

It’s like you guys like a dog. Like you guys, you should have a polycule with Tom because if you need shit done, he’s the one to go to. Because yeah, in a more in a more traditional romance novel, what would have happened is that she would have thought Jonathan, the lawyer was going to save her. But really it was like the gamekeeper, you know, yeah, exactly.

Strong peasant type. But that’s not what happened. No. In this, everybody, the only thing they can do is finally murder the guy when the house is burning down. Yeah.

But he also like, I mean, he tries to go back and save him, but he can’t get to him. Yeah. And I’m like, why? Why? Just leave that asshole. It’s cool.

It’s cool, Tom. They would let him burn. Let him burn. Would you talk shit with or about the heroine? I mean, she’s fine. She’s just 17. I mean, she’s done in a very realistic 17 year old way that she’s very, very naive. But I mean, she’s also very like willing to learn and learns more about like social institutions and, you know, like she’s not a self insert character at all.

No. She’s not like a like Jane Eyre, you know, is so smart. And so like, yeah, she’s like kind of driven around by the winds of fate. But she also like takes her life into her own hands. She fucking leaves like she goes and finds her weird ass, cuck and cousin. I mean, yeah, no, it’s, you know, and so, yeah, she is like, I mean, again, I feel like she’s done very true to being 17, you know, and I think it’s important that she does care about like welfare reform and that kind of stuff. And, you know, like the state of things there and, you know, just wanting to be better and do better. You spend the book literally terrified for her.

Yeah. Because she’s this little mousy thing that’s, you know, married to this giant man who wants her dead. But, you know, the only thing keeping him from doing it is like doing it. Yeah, exactly. He’s not. He’s not a cartoonishly evil guy. In fact, he’s a, I guess a real sort of person who wants to think of everybody wants to think of themselves as the hero of the run story. Yeah. But he wants to think of themselves as a good person. So he’s like, well, I thought I’d murder her. Hey, that’s tacky.

Yeah. I would never do anything so unto what is actually murder you. But I will like have my possible boyfriend train a horse to bolt on demand.

Like I’ll do it that way. I’m sure that he knew about that because, like, you know, just that it happened when he was, he had a rock solid alibi. He was at Eggman Burke. That’s true. Who would not have been anywhere near her. True. I think that Fleetwood maybe did that one on his own. Maybe.

Because honestly, if I. But there’s definitely some, like there’s some level of cahooting going on. Yeah. Well, I’m sure Fleetwood, he just like knew that he couldn’t tell Claire. Like Claire knew that Fleetwood was pulling some shit. Yeah. But they both had to like, I know that you know that I know that you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So Claire didn’t want to fucking know about it. And he wanted to pretend like it wasn’t happening, even though we all know it was happening.

Fair enough. Beg to all the bitch, there’s a lot of women’s relationships, different kind. Yeah, we do get like that. Yeah. There’s like Jonathan’s mom. There is her maid who’s like trying to help her. But of course also gets fired, you know. Yeah.

There is a horrible aunt. Yeah. You know, I know some ladies in town. So there are a lot of women and we do have a good. We do have a good relationship between her and Jonathan’s mom. And Jonathan’s mom kind of represents like forward thinking women.

Like another option for how how one could be. Yes. We’re willing to take certain sacrifices, you know.

Yeah. When it comes to consent, is this book more Robin Thicke or Marvin? Well, you know, we don’t have any sex stuff in this book. She’s definitely not in control of her own body. No, no, exactly.

Like there is a definite like issue with like consent of just being a person. And what’s very, very frustrating is also like she’ll try to tell like the housekeeper should be like, he is going to murder. She’s like, yeah, well, what do you want me to do, girl? And the other thing that she’ll say is, you know, your problems that all be solved just have sex with them, have more sex with them. And she’s like, OK, I can’t tell you that he won’t fuck me. Like, you listen to me. And like, if I can’t tell you that because like, what are you going to then that makes him look bad and I can’t make him look bad. Exactly. Or like maybe he’ll annul and maybe he’ll put me out or maybe he’ll look.

Yeah, exactly. She can’t say that either, you know. And but I mean, like what she gets told, the only piece of advice she gets other than like, well, you know, sometimes you just had to put up with it is just fucking more.

Just have more sex with him. Yeah. And and it’s really like what if you’re honestly, if you’re married, that’s probably the only thing that you could like control somebody with if you were doing that. Yeah, exactly.

Like because you have no other, you have no legal, no financial, no other. It’s awful. All right. How badly are you judging your mom off reading this book? Oh, this book is great. Yeah, it is a good book. It is a good book. There’s nothing like there’s no like, oh, you know, in it. But and there’s a lot more to it than I mean, like there’s a lot of great gothics out there and we’ve read some fun ones.

But, you know, they were cranking a lot of stuff. Yeah, not all great. All right. But no, this one is a solid one. So yeah, I mean, this is actually I’ve recommended this book since I’ve read it to several people at work against it.

It’s good for a modern reader or for your mom back in 1973. Yeah, we are changing our Scar Joe question because I feel like, you know, we’ve been after her enough and she hasn’t done anything really embarrassing in a while. And nobody watches those Marvel movies anymore. Yeah, right.

So we’re going to call that one now. Would Florida ban this book? Yes, would Florida ban this book? I think what’s interesting about it is we do have a lot of talk about like the plight of the working class and, you know, 19th century England and just, you know, kind of like just using that to know what was going on overall, understanding how, you know, labor practices were how children were treated, that kind of stuff. And of course, like the legal plight of women. Yes, exactly. It is not just about a one dude who’s a bad dude who tries to murder somebody and all that is about how he’s allowed to do that because women have literally no legal personage at all.

So I mean, if you come away from that, you’ll know a lot more about, like, you know, what what feminists had to fight again. Yeah, exactly. You know, yeah. So this book is hugely progressive. I mean, it is all white.

It does have maybe that weird little bit of evil gay business in it. Yeah. So yeah, we don’t know. Because again, it was so like, I don’t know why Fleetwood would have been so invested if it wasn’t anything other than like devotion to that man. Somebody else in the Goodreads also thought that. So I think that’s a legitimate reading of that is that, like, it wasn’t just Miss Fleetwood that he was. Yeah, I think it was like, yeah, a little polycule of them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, a little thing. You’re not leaving the house looking like that. We don’t really have a ton of outfits in this. Some outfits. I mean, there’s always a little bit of outfittage. I mean, because she’s getting new dresses and stuff with her money that her aunt is spending. And of course, well, the woman in white has an outfit. Yes, the woman in white has an outfit. And really, I do love the fact that it is the vicar running around in that dress.

Like, we. Yeah, I thought that maybe what she was seeing was like Claire’s mistress coming and going. Yeah, but no, what it was, like, it was seriously like the.

I mean, it still could be the vicar as the as the mistress. That’s right. But he’s wearing his Jefferson maybe that’s his.

Shit up. But maybe that’s like, that’s what Claire wants him to do is to bring your Jefferson Davis best and we’re going to get it on. Right. Maybe that’s his. Maybe that’s their thing. Yeah, it might be their thing.

But he’s also wearing like she’s cloth and phosphorus. So I mean, you know, fair enough. Thank you. You’re a would your 12 year old self a dog, you’re a page. It’s sadly there is zero sex.

No, we get like a little bit of a kiss. Yeah, it’s not. Although they’re falling in love, Jonathan and Lucy’s is great because if she says something that just breaks your heart because that she says it was easy, like you could just talk to him. Yeah, I’d never been with a man and it was just easy. Yeah. And that’s what it’s supposed to be. And at the end that you can tell that she is like definitely like, yes, about to happen. You know, I’m trying to fuck somebody for a long time. I know I’ve been married. And I just can’t know what I’ll do with me. So yeah, like not even the people that I kept going on, getting me accused of doing it.

I know anybody. So this dude, we’re going to we’re going to hit that same in. Yes, on the way out. Oh, and again, we also found out that like the evidence so we can prove this shit so nobody’s going to like accuse anybody of anything is that like they left out the marriage license that Mr. Fleetwood signed for Miss Fleetwood and Claire back when they were school kids left it out as like bait. Like the plan is very elaborate. OK, and I’m not sure I can quite exactly explain it.

Yeah, obviously I can’t because y’all ain’t following either. But yeah, so like it is they have the receipts like so. Yeah. And in other words, her marriage will be annulled. Not that she’s getting that fucking money back. But I wonder, did she keep the house? Or at least like I had kind of like the feeling that that she would be able to keep that house and like the plan was like to be there.

But like because she had been invested in that town, that she would be like the kindly mistress that could use her funds because he also owned the factory. Yeah. Yeah.

Textile mill. Yeah, Claire did. And that she was going to run.

It kind of gets a little bit of north and southy and that like she wants to run that factory using fair labor practice. It was entailed. Well, anyway.

Yeah, we don’t have to. Yeah, but there’s it ends up very well for her that she gets the money. I think she gets the money.

She gets the house and that she gets like the and that with her marrying Jonathan, even though it won’t technically be like hers, you will give her control of it because she’s met her as his mom and she knows that he. Yeah. And like I think they kind of have a plan about it like that. Which is great.

That’s great. What pairs nicely with a dumpster fire? Oh, they’re always drinking sherry in this. So it’s got to be sherry because I feel like there’s like a sherry moment where she’s overwrought, you know, and I’m sure he’s laced the the the sherry with the water.

Yeah. Or, you know, it’s the kind of drink that you said on fire before you drink it because you got to burn the house at the end of a go. You do.

You have to burn. Like you can’t be you can’t be leaving the house. And I think like what they do is like, I’m sure like what burns in the house is only like the toxic part and she can fix the rest of it. You know, that kind of thing. Or I mean, she just wouldn’t want to be associated with that fucking house. No. Or anyway, and everybody hates the house.

I mean, like everybody in town hates the house. So you know what? Just build a little sleep. You know, exactly.

A little cottage. Should a person in the 21st century read this book? Yeah, I thought it was great. I thought it was so well written. I really enjoyed it.

It’s kind of surprised a lot of people on Goodreads thought it was slow, but I wonder if they’ve read another 70s Gothic. Maybe. I don’t know.

You know, again, it is very misleading in that it feels more contemporary. Yeah. Like Courtney literally was mad at it for not boning more. I was like, where’s the boning? There’s no boning. But yeah.

I mean, it does make sense. Yes. So this has been Greg Gallows coming live from Edisto, South Carolina. So this is our second Halloween. Yes.

The soad. Sadly, I was really upset that the ghost wasn’t real because the last one we did of hers, the devil literally was. Yeah. At least two different ghosts. And there was some scooby-doo shit. Yes. There’s a caper in this, but no real ghost.

No. And you can find us at bodicetiplers.com. Instagram, bodice tippers. We are on Blue Sky, bodice tippers. Facebook, bodice tippers. And if you want to Blue Sky invite, I got some. So I can invite you there so you can follow us.

Yes, you got to do it. Sarah talking about beans. So I have been talking a little about that. If y’all are used to following us on social media and you’re used to following.

So Courtney used to do our Twitter and now I do our Bluesky. Can be a different vibe. Very different vibe over there.

Very different vibe. Look, I’m a member of the Rancho Gordo Bean Club, and I have no problems just like breaking that out and putting that in people’s faces.